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<Tom 7> (SPOILER) Nope, that's the only solution as far as I know. <pieguy> (SPOILER) is this level cooked? you can flip the exit, then push a block on top, and flip it over again. i haven't tried to solve it the "obvious" way. |
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<pieguy> (SPOILER) it turns out that for the program i used to create this level, finding the best solution is no more than a side effect of creating the level itself, with one minor difference. my program assumes that when you push a block, you move into the square previously occupied by the block. this allows me to only consider levels with even parity. for this particular level, 15 minutes of computer time was required (on my 2800+ athlon), and about 300 MB of ram. my program places the blocks in such a way to ensure the longest possible shortest solution. <Tom 7> (SPOILER) Thanks, mjn. Yeah, my solver has hashing, but I had it turned off because it made things a lot slower for Ricochet Robot solving. But I guess I was expecting a much shallower solution! I'll try again.. <mjn> (SPOILER) Whoops, I'm an idiot--of course the solver's only going to find one solution if duplicate positions are ignored; it won't be able to duplicate the ending position! Never mind, I have no idea what the minimum complexity is. The minimum number of block pushes, though, should be 68. <mjn> (SPOILER) Heh heh, I gave up and wrote a solver as well. My solution has a complexity of something like 27, including the first move. (I got that number by watching the solution replay; I might be off by one or two.) Also, unless there's a bug in my program, that's the *only* solution (except for a couple minor variations towards the end). Does your solver check for duplicate positions? Mine was threatening to take a long long time, too, but fortunately, adding a hashtable to check for repeats cut it down to a few seconds. |
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<Tom 7> Man, this one is tough. |
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<Tom 7> (SPOILER) Also, I am not counting the first move, which I believe is forced, so that's really a depth of 18. <Tom 7> (SPOILER) Since this one was made by computer (and I am stumped) I tried to solve it by computer, using my Ricochet Robot solver (the game is very similar). Can someone who has solved this level help me figure out if I have a bug in my program? Define the "complexity" of a solution to be the number of times that the player switches from pushing around one block to pushing around a different one. (All levels on 5 blocks then have a complexity of at least 4). What is the minimum complexity of the solution for this level? For Ricochet Robot, I never see complexity higher than about 11, even for very hard levels. But I ran my program on this level up to complexity *17* and didn't find a solution (50 hours of computer time)! I find it a bit hard to believe that the complexity is really this high: The speedrun at 414 moves could correspond to a higher complexity, but only if the individual moves are pretty short (~24 each). However, I also think my program is correct. Anyway, if someone can tell me the complexity of his solution, that would help me know if it's hopeless to try to find a solution automatically, or hint that my program may have a bug. |
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<John Lewis> For those who thought the original was too easy. :-) |
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<Tom 7> (SPOILER) Added speedrun: 38 moves (old: 70). Cooked: If daleks colide on a panel, and then the resulting broken bot is pushed off, the panel nets a "permanent" swap, since that's two bots stepping on but one bot stepping (pushed) off. This can be used to solve this level quickly, especially if we let some extra bots block the lasers for us. |
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<Tom 7> nLogic: the original solution is automatically included when you upload levels. (Although this wasn't true before the speedrun system was implemented, which is why you'll sometimes see people upload Original solutions for old levels.) |
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<nLogic> (SPOILER) Cook: I went down, grabbed the grey block and exited from the left side, ignoring the entire right half of the puzzle. But maybe you're supposed to do that? |
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<Tom 7> (SPOILER) I like the giant Dalek, but the level is pretty loose. It would have been harder if the lasers triggered by the red panels were more troublesome; my solution turned some on but they didn't get in my way. |
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<Tom 7> (SPOILER) Added solution "Tom's Method": Cooked: Here's a totally different way of solving it. Nice level, though. |
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<John Lewis> Fixed - please delete old version. |
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<bpotetz> (SPOILER) Cook: I guess so. If the hugbot isn't stuck when he presses a button, when you leave the heart-frame hole, you push out its pipe-block doorway, which you can use to push the buttons. This has good potential, though. <John Lewis> This level will be cooked, I just know it...:-) |
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<John Lewis> (SPOILER) Added speedrun: 1004 moves (old: 1098). I want the speed record to be under 1000!! |
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<bpotetz> (SPOILER) Thanks. It wasn't so pretty the first time. You could probably make a fairly hard level based on that type of moving-target pipe-pushing. <Tom 7> (SPOILER) Very slick with the wires, B. <Tom 7> (SPOILER) Man, it was really annoying when I left the bot at the bottom-left, thinking, "I can just do that later." |
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<bpotetz> Sorry! Don't give up! |
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<bpotetz> I only *wish* this type of level was my style. But I certainly wouldn't mind seeing more of these. Wow! Thanks for the cool new user ID, Tom! |
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<bpotetz> (SPOILER) Added speedrun: 367 moves (old: 451). Levels that force the user to redo the entire level depending on innocuous-seeming decisions in the beginning will probably have more speed-runs. |
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