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<J> (SPOILER) Added speedrun: 1657 moves (old: 1730). Still not an optimal solution. |
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<Niall> Ummm my mistake only #1450. Oh well. |
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<bpotetz> Yeah - some of my favorite levels are computer-aided. Typically, creating a good (fun, interesting) level is much harder than solving one, so I don't mind if designers get a helping hand to level the playing field. Also, levels that are difficult to solve but not very interesting are easy enough to write by hand (like "Riddle of Steel"). <wowei> (SPOILER) Hi mm, I fully agree with you in the judging part > judge for the moment i dont in the 10 part ;-) and i dont know in the "not fair" part. :) i think the challenge only is different in computer-generated levels. am not sure, if those are not fair somehow, they're only different somehow. now this one IS solvable without computer assistence, and i guess, i'm making progress in the level "revenge of the computers 2". problem is, as usual, that you get no feedback, whether you're on the right route. maybe this general and very obvious sounding hint isn't a spoiler at all: play with them blocks around a bit, to see what they can do and what they can't. you already know, what must be done and where the problem is in detail. following mr holmes' deductive methods, you'll see, what's possible and what is not. :) if you respond: "I've done all this already a thousand times!", question now, where you badly want one single block to be especially - and bingo you'll hopefully see. keep on keeping on! |
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<Tom 7> Eric: Feel free to upload a new speedrun as often as you like, it doesn't really have any impact. <Eric119> (SPOILER) Added speedrun: 124 moves (old: 130). I guess I should look at things longer before rushing to upload the speedrun. |
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<mm> I did give this level a 10 without solving it. In my opinion, it's just not solvable without computer assistance. But I guess we all "judge" just for the moment? And after all: I've "re-jugded" some levels - of course - but this one: no way. I think computer-assisted-levels are somehow not fair. After all. <wowei> Brain, i have to agree to you and didn't see it from that point of view before: wanting to "correct" an overall rating is like erasing others opinions. the optimal way to rate levels is to not know, how others have rated. So one should ignore that information best. now I've been asking myself, if i should rerate this level 9 or 10 in difficulty. after a while i answered: "no!" :] it definetely isn't a 10 and compared to other 9s, i gave, it's not enough. considering after all i did "work" on it for months, but now i truely DO want to split hairs ;) and determine herewith: an 8 it is, basta! :D only a little while ago i've been giving out a lot of 10s in the very first enthusiastic moments of having found a hard and long searched for solution. i suppose, all of you know this kind of satisfaction and enthusiasm, i'm talking about. later i saw a kind of a real inflation of rating-points in my user-file by having rated thirty or more 10s. i rethought the worth of them, and only two 10s remained here so far. tom's latest genius approach of newark airport is one of them, Henri's "too many alsers" the other, although the intended solution of the latter is a little, little bit easier, but i love the harder way, which i found! rating a level always is a matter of taste only, of course. and taste can be discussed about for eternity. or can't ?-) <Tom 7> (SPOILER) I do try to advertise for the game and I've submitted it to a lot of freeware directories, but maybe I am missing some major ones. If you guys know any places or venues I'm missing, I'd love help in that department. Particularly if you know people who are prone to spending lots of time and effort on puzzles... What you say about the ratings is correct. I don't think there's much we can do about inaccuracies, because tastes do vary a lot. It is a little bothersome that very hard levels are only rated by a handful of people. Unfortunately I just think that most people are looking for a bit more casual of a game, and don't have the ability or desire to make it through the hardest levels, so without a lot more people playing the game that is unlikely to change. (But please, don't stop making levels for experts!) <bpotetz> > I'd rate higher than 8 also, but didn't, because i wanted to decrease the overall rating a bit. Sometimes I am also tempted to "correct" the rating of a level by giving it a score that is higher or lower than I would have given it otherwise, just to bring the overall rating to where I think it belongs. But I try to resist this temptation - that is like erasing someone else's opinion just because you don't agree with them. I should not try to trump the group consensus by exaggerating my own opinions. Meanwhile, the fact that many of the best levels have only been solved by a handful of escapists is probably a big source of noise in the level ratings. Tom, do you ever think about more aggressive advertisement & recruiting, or is that our job? There are a lot of freeware directories out there, but Escape doesn't seem to get listed much. Just for the record, I have to agree with Tom & mjn about the difficulty rating of this level versus the others mentioned. This is a great puzzle with a satisfyingly lengthy search space - very well done. <mjn> (SPOILER) Personally, I find these block-pushing kinds of levels to be harder than the others you mentioned, because of the sheer search depth required. For me that's usually more difficult than levels like Jumps or Halved Arena, where the emphasis is on figuring out the "trick". Probably this is because I have no Sokoban experience, I guess. |
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<LizPf> (SPOILER) Cook: uppermost transporter bypasses all the "fun" |
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<Tom 7> (SPOILER) I'm not sure... I actually thought jcreed's #470 and the Jumps series weren't that hard. There are some levels, like Grand Prix and Quartered Arena, that I know are hard but I haven't solved them yet, so I haven't rated. I did solve this one by computer, but only after trying by hand for several hours, and then writing the program specifically to solve it! After seeing the complexity of the minimal solution and how I wasn't even close to solving it by hand I decided to rate it at difficulty 9. <wowei> (SPOILER) a really hard one. building routes for the most right and afterwards for the most left block is the task, and three free blocks have to it. only he/she, who plays with them blocks a bit, - Okay, it's a looong "bit" - will discover the prettiness of the sequence. I learned, that this level is solved with computer by some of you. and I began wondering, how some ratings in difficulty arise. Did you rate it that high, because you gave up solving? I'd rate higher than 8 also, but didn't, because i wanted to decrease the overall rating a bit. But how comes that so many harder levels are rated lower? harder than finding a right route is in my opinion to do so with the right timing. the timing of things, like leading some bots or "jumping" over lasers and traps etc., is a much tougher job. f.e. Henri's halved and quartered arenas (1027, 1058) are rated 7.0 and 6.8 only, Mjn's "Grand Prix" (L594) 8.1, Jcreed's L470 6.1, Max's "Jumps" and variations lower than 7. All these are not only damn fine but also very hard levels with really nice solutions. And there are many more of it rated much too low relative to this one. How comes? |
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<mic> the level is amasing |
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<Tom 7> (SPOILER) Added speedrun: 325 moves (old: 331). Optimizing Eric's a little... |
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<Tom 7> Duplicate. |
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<Tom 7> Duplicate. |
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<selotte> i REALLY CAN SEE HOW THIS CAN BE DONE |
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<Tom 7> (SPOILER) The purpose of gate B is just to get you to gate C. Pretty much everything in gate B (really the whole level) is there for a reason, not to trick you... |
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<Jacob> (SPOILER) Go as far to the right as you can without getting zapped, that will casue the 2 lower bots to marge. Then go down, right, then to the exit. |
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<mm> (SPOILER) It's me again - I don't understand what's going on on gate B? I do know what I'd have to do - but I still don't understand the purpose of gate B??? And of the bombs? Are there any red herrings? |
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<elliot> (SPOILER) Cook: h f |
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<elliot> (SPOILER) Cook: wal left] |
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<elliot> (SPOILER) Cook: yuor puzlle sucks |
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